kaskait: It doesn't look good for Harry and Hermione!

I saw something nasty in the woodshed! (

kaskait) wrote,
@ 2006-02-20 02:01:00

Current mood:	anxious
Entry tags:	harry potter, hermione granger

It doesn't look good for Harry and Hermione!
I just read something that chilled my bones in OOTP.

In searching for my HBP dream triggers, I reread the Threstral scene again.

I don't like the fact that BOTH Harry and Hermione were covered in blood. It was the blood they wore that attracted the Threstrals to their presence. Think about that image. Both children were marked by blood and attracted death to their sides. Luna added to the horrible atmosphere by stating that the smell of the blood was strong enough to attract more than one Threstral.

Harry and Hermione may not survive book 7. If Hermione holds the key to solving the prophecy, she and Harry (as Riddle's equal) may die in the process of destroying Riddle.

If this is the case, I hope one of them finds real love and joy before that happens.

(Post a new comment)

	sigune 2006-02-20 09:19 am UTC (link)
	Oogh! I certainly hope you're wrong! She can't kill Snape and Harry and Hermione off, can she?! But it's true JKR is pretty ruthless when it comes to characters' fates... (Reply to this)(Thread)

	kaskait 2006-02-20 05:42 pm UTC (link)
	I think we are going to see death on the level of Hamlet. Maybe we are watching a war between the royals and Riddle is just in the way? (Reply to this)(Parent)

	ataniell93 2006-02-20 09:43 am UTC (link)
	Won't Ron have to die before that happens? (Reply to this)(Thread)

kaskait
2006-02-20 05:32 pm UTC (link)

Ron Weasely is Our King.

I've been thinking. On person on my flist compared HP to the War of the Roses. I've frequently been stating that sometimes it looks as if Voldemort is trying to destroy the Blacks.

This situation has been going on well before Riddle himself. The infighting between the aristocratic houses. And the DOM only seems pasted on top of this whole mess.

The wild cards in this situation are Riddle/Potter and Granger. Everyone else belongs in the WW. What if they destroy each other taking out the imbalancing power. The Blacks are already destroyed (which may mean that Draco dies in book 7 as well). Who would be left behind to fill in as First House? The Weaselys. Particularly Ron Weasely, the only survivor in the fight against Lord Voldemort.

Be careful what you wish for...hey?

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	a_white_rain 2006-02-20 10:12 am UTC (link)
	For some reason, I think, if any of the trio die, it'll be hermione. (Reply to this)(Thread)

kaskait
2006-02-20 05:37 pm UTC (link)

I thought so too at one point. But since she always goes out on a limb for Harry..I think Harry will be there with her. They will both probably die.

It would be the inverse of what happened in SS. In that first book, Ron almost died while Harry and Hermione carried on.

In divination class, Harry was always coming up with the death card. Hermione left the class before Trewlawney could get her hands on her. Ron never pulled up any kind of death card in that class. He just kept saying he was born under bad tidings.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	a_white_rain 2006-02-20 07:05 pm UTC (link)
	That would be sort of ironic. everyone seems to think Ron'll die. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	kaskait 2006-02-20 07:29 pm UTC (link)
	Yes, it would be ironic. But it isn't like it doesn't have foreshadowing. It was Ron who moved Harry and Hermione into the endgame of SS. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	a_belladonna 2006-02-20 10:38 pm UTC (link)
	That's an interesting theory - at least I haven't seen it before. And yes, it's a bit chilling to think of. (Reply to this)

swythyv
2006-02-20 10:52 pm UTC (link)

Though wasn't there a bit of dialog that the Thestrals had got a bad rap for being omens of death? Like the Auguries had? Wizarding folk seem almost absurdly superstitious at times. ;D

I've been wondering why Harry didn't see the Thestrals when he first came to Hogwarts. Didn't he see his mother die? If he didn't, then she never made it to his crib, did she? None of this baby-Harry-in-her-arms, shielded-him-with-her-body stuff, eh?

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	s00 2006-02-21 01:43 am UTC (link)
	JKR covered that on her site. (Reply to this)(Parent)

annearchy
2006-02-21 04:39 am UTC (link)

Harry did see his mother die. But he was only 15 months old, so he was too young to process her death, too young to understand AT THAT AGE what had happened. I think that only people who have seen death at an age when they can understand are able to see Thestrals. That would include Luna, who was about 9 when her mother died.

And

kaskait, your theory is making me very sad :( But you know, JKR is just enough of a bitch to kill my 2 favorite characters (well, that would certainly keep them from dating ;)

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	kaskait 2006-02-21 04:59 am UTC (link)
	Yes, it is a sad theory. But these books have never been happy. But this ending would tie into the grand mythical motifs that JKR is trying to emulate. Harry will be Beowulf to his world. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	ricardienne 2006-02-22 02:52 am UTC (link)
	If he's Beowulf, however, his death will the imminent screwing-over of his world. Snape/Draco will be massing the old crowd for a coup, and Luna (or possibly Trelawney) will let out that wail… I think Dumbledore's a bit more like, actually. With Harry as Wiglaf. Riddle~Serpent~Dragon isn't too much of a stretch, either way. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

kaskait
2006-02-22 03:16 am UTC (link)

I thought Ron fit better as Wiglaf. If he is the only survivor than he will take the Harry/Dumbledore place as a representative for the OOTP and head of the first pureblood family.

I would love if HP ended on the eve of a new war. The WW would get the world it deserves. After it put it's faith in a Dark Lord and then a child savior. It is time they take responsibility for their society.

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ricardienne
2006-02-22 03:43 am UTC (link)

I think the generational difference between Beowulf and Wiglaf is important, thought. Ron, I can see as more of an Unferth to Harry's Beowulf. (Which I suppose makes Dumbledore Hrothgar and puts us way back to the beginning of the story). Ron's the insider, the pureblood, the one who knows what's going on, and Harry is the outsider, but the one who turns out to be the hero. This is more applicable to the early books, I suppose.

And has the WW really put its faith in either a Dark Lord or a child savior? It seems that no one really cares what happens, politically speaking. They're all so wrapped up in their own little lives -- even the ones who work for the government (i.e. everyone). They're interested in Harry insofar as he defeated Voldemort, but they don't really put their trust in him now. They're ready to turn over everything to the government and leave it at that. No, we don't like Voldemort, yes, we think that Harry Potter did us a nice turn when he offed him at age one, but we aren't going to do anything to stop the one or emulate the other.

(dueling Brennan icons yay! Unfortunately, I've only got the one.)

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kaskait
2006-02-22 03:52 am UTC (link)

Liam. Sigh. I made them myself in a quick and dirty crop method. Check them out on my icon page. You can take any one you like, if you want.

I read the WW very indifference as putting all their woes onto Harry's shoulders. He is there to worry so they don't have to. And as far as the Dark Lord goes? Well I noticed that everyone who spoke about him was kind of impressed as well as terrified of him. Riddle was selling something that the WW tolerated. Then again he could be the convenient destablizer in the royal game.

We could be watching a Wizard "War of the Roses" just like your essays suggested.

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ricardienne
2006-02-22 11:38 pm UTC (link)

(Actually, I only have one because I only get 6 icons, and I don't want to use them all up with essentially one (or two, possibly) subjects.)

It seems to me that the WW will tolerate quite a lot, as long as their lives aren't disturbed. Most of them don't seem to really care about politics, or the ethics of Muggle-killing, or the pureblood-sway as long as it doesn't adversely affect them. If Voldemort has stuck to the ordinary channels, he'd probably be in power now.

I don't think that I suggested a wizarding War of the Roses, just speculated on magical interference in the actual ones. Although that would be interesting… actually, I can see it more as something like the Russian Civil War or some of the later French Revolution, where the old powers are fighting the new(er), non-aristocratic government. There isn't a lot of family vs family rivalry: all the wealthy and important ones are working together, for the moment. If Voldemort one, however…

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kaskait
2006-02-21 05:06 am UTC (link)

Harry saw death before he understood what it was. That is why he couldn't see the Thestrals.

I can't get my finger on the myths that JKR will follow and the ones she just throws in as red herrings. She is pulling in Greek, Roman, Celtic and Scandanavian motifs from all over the place. She has even used a smattering of eastern beliefs as well (the Nagini for instance).

She seems to be doing a lot of Beowulf quoting right now. And Beowulf dies in his story. Why do I include Hermione? Well in the Nagini myth, a young woman admired the Buddha. She decided to become a Buddha herself. So she sacrificed her life and became an instant Buddha. The Nagini Princess image shows a woman wrapped in the coils of a snake. A theorist on PK pointed that out to me. What did Riddle name his familiar? Nagini.

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	nymphe_ 2006-02-21 01:27 am UTC (link)
	It is possible and I hope that is not the case, eek! Maybe there is a connection to the fifth task in PS and Gwarp's stinky blood on them. It could foreshadow both Gwarp and Hagrid dying violently trying to save Harry and Hermione from Voldemort's army. (Reply to this)(Thread)

kaskait
2006-02-21 04:53 am UTC (link)

It could foreshadow the fifth task. The blood did come from Grawp.

However it was Harry and Hermione who were marked. Harry was marked again in HBP.

An army? I don't Riddle would need that. I think Riddle is set to be reckless again and this ties into House Elfs Alchemy theories. It is too painful for Riddle to possess Harry. He has been trying to figure out a way to do that and use Harry as a weapon. But who is to say that is not what Dumbledore wanted? Let him join wih Harry and Hermione would be the handmaiden to the process. Either Riddle and/or Harry would be consumed in the process creating a hybrid of both. That is the best case scenario. The worst is that they both die in the during the alchemical process.

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	gods_lil_rocker 2006-02-21 03:27 pm UTC (link)
	Hmmm....interesting. I think it might be more likely that one of the Weasleys kicks the bucket (mathematically speaking), but I'm not sure about either Harry or Hermione dying. I think it'll be more likely for Harry rather than Hermione, but I suppose we'll find out soon enough. =) Interesting thoughts, though. I'd like to look more into this. (Reply to this)(Thread)

kaskait
2006-02-21 03:51 pm UTC (link)

It's interesting and a bit sad.

I do think more of the Weaselys will meet a bad end. But somehow, I don't include Ron in that category. All his life he has been wanting to be something more than a Weasely. He has even envied Harry at certain times. The horrible irony for Ron cold be that he actually does take on the title of "The Boy who lived".

Hermione, well, she takes wild chances. JKR stated that because Dumbledore had no significant other, he took risky chances. There was noone to hold him back. I see Hermione in the same position. There is noone there to hold her back. Many times Harry and Ron seem cowed by her. So I can see her calculating on something foolhardy during the fight with Riddle and paying for it.

I don't see how Harry can survive. He is too much a part of Riddle and vice versa. Perhaps Hermione will find a way around this snafu. But it will be risky and could lead to both their deaths and Riddle with them.

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	sea_of_tethys 2006-02-24 05:07 am UTC (link)
	JKR stated that because Dumbledore had no significant other, he took risky chances. Oh, where did she say that? Darn, you sunk my ship waves Albus/Minerva banner (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	kaskait 2006-02-24 11:00 am UTC (link)
	Yes, in the last interview she stated that Dumbledore had no equal and was isolated. Here is a link from Madam Scoop. http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/2005/0705-tlc_mugglenet-anelli-1.htm (Reply to this)(Parent)

whimsicalmuse
2006-02-22 12:05 am UTC (link)

Hi, I'm here by way of your last post on anti_hg--hope you don't mind.

I'd never thought of Harry and Hermione being marked for death by Grawp's blood and the fact that it was they who attracted the Thestrals. Great point!

The Nagini Princess image shows a woman wrapped in the coils of a snake.

Forgive me if this is all old news to you, but the image of the Nagini Princess reminds me of the Caduceus *points to icon*, Hermes' wand. Another possible link to Harry and Hermione's death is Hermione's name, which I'm sure you know is the feminine form of Hermes, the god who guided people to and from the Underworld. I wonder if Harry will have to go through the veil voluntarily (sacrificially) with Hermione either going with him or following him to rescue him? Hermes had a special helmet that hid his identity to the Underworld and allowed him to escape unharmed. I wonder if Fred and George's Headless Hats will be a help if the Hermione/Hermes/Underworld connection plays out.

I'm really interested in the alchemical aspects of HP, too. :)

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kaskait
2006-02-22 01:27 am UTC (link)

Thanks for reading!

I never looked into the meaning behind Hermione's name. But this new information adds to the danger. Interesting. I can see them both traveling beyond that curtain to the underworld. It's the room with the locked door that is supposed to symbolize Love that I can't figure out. Who will open it? Will it be Harry or Hermione? Or maybe Ron so that he can save both his friends?

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whimsicalmuse
2006-02-22 03:30 am UTC (link)

The Love Room has me stumped, too, although I think Harry has to be the one to open it. I have this image of him just knocking or requesting entry (instead of trying to force it) and it opening right up.

Traditionally in alchemy, the room contains the goddess, Venus. And that makes me think of the Astronomy OWL in OotP when Harry mistook Venus for Mars or Love for War, metaphorically speaking. But as to who/what Venus is for JKR?

Some have wondered if Lily's body is kept in there and studied because she was able to thwart Voldy with her love for Harry, but that seems really weird to me. :)

I've also wondered if the Love Room doesn't cause a Mirror of Erised-like realization when one enters in.

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kaskait
2006-02-22 03:43 am UTC (link)

Lily's body in the Love room would be wierd.

I don't think it would be anything like a goddess in the room. Perhaps it would work like the Room of Requirement? It contains or shows what or whom you most love etc.

I can see Harry being possessed by Riddle once more and journeying through each room in DOM. The time room, brain room, the love room etc. before finally entering the underworld.

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ladybluestar
2006-03-07 03:32 pm UTC (link)

I'm not sure that JKR has the guts to kill both Harry and Hermione, especially after that horrid plot device of Felix Felices (which is completely improbable, even in Potterverse).
It would be interesting though if Ron survived, a different kind of sacrifice, having to live on after his friends are dead--not being able to join them in death.
Also, another possible clue for Hermione's death is that is has never been clearly stated what she wants to do. Harry and Ron want to be Aurors, though Ron would also love professional Quidditch. But with Hermione, there are clues, but no outright declaration.

But, as

annearchy said, there is no point in having the third member of the Trio be female unless that fact causes Harry to win or fail.

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	kaskait 2006-03-07 04:19 pm UTC (link)
	I believe that Hermione is going to be given a hard choice by Tom Riddle. She will hold both boys lives in her hand. Tom will either let her save Ron or Harry but not both. So either she will save one and let the other die or she will find a third option in death. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	ladybluestar 2006-03-07 04:22 pm UTC (link)
	Would certainly be quite the choice. I could certainly see her choosing death. (Reply to this)(Parent)

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